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This whole bit about podcasters scurrying about getting improved rankings and favorable reviews while losing track of treating themselves as businessmen and businesswomen is yet another example of what I call an "Acne Phase" in action, a time during the growth cycle of any new technology when its practitioners either grow up and become pros or grow down and go elsewhere.
Success favors the prepared and the patient.
We're not our own enemy, but lots of us seem to have blinders on that block out everyone who doesn't podcast. It's a matter of opening our eyes.
Sounds like you're telling podcasters to hold out for higher CPM rates or not accept ads. That's a huge mistake.
Content in itself has no value to an advertiser. The ability of an audience to respond to an advertisement placed in a show is what holds value for an advertiser. So why should an advertiser pay a high dollar amount for placement in untested content? They won't do it.
What advertisers will do is test out the space with low CPM rates and see if they get results. And when podcasters decide they won't put a whole lot of effort into selling because the CPM rates are too low then everyone loses. What incentive does an advertiser have to raise CPM rates if they aren't getting an ROI from their small investment? Heck, why would they even try a larger investment with that kind of attitude from content producers?
Podcast producers who want to run ads need to understand that in the business of media production you will need to prove yourself as an audience influencer before sponsors will spend big dollars to be a part of your show. The only way to get there is to accept modest deals and show solid performance.
Podcasters who do learn to promote sponsors effectively by moving their audiences to act will get bigger deals as time goes on. Those deals will move from Cost Per Acquistion to Cost Per Thousand and eventually flat rate sponsorship agreements.
Those who sit on the sidelines holding out for a high CPM bidder will only stunt their promotion abilities while ensuring that advertisers approach other podcasts with a more realistic approach to advertising process.
I gotta disagree with you here. My experience has been that when an advertiser has paid low, low rates to "test" your media, no matter what the results they'll never pay higher later for the same exposure.
Media creators are better off waiting until someone sees the value in what you are asking and then pays a fair rate.
I you need to, throw in additional value, but don't offer a deep discount right away in hopes that they will pay full price later - it won't happen.
Tim
There is also an argument that the reason why we accept such low CPM and CPA rates is because everyone else is willing to accept them too. One of the only ways to change this is to adopt a union mentality about ad rates for podcasts. But despite how much of a community podcasters might be, we're not that close.
I am disappointed to hear that this is RawVoice's approach. Leading people to believe that they must accept lower CPM rates to "prove themselves" is a self fulfilling prophecy. It has a simple result - low CPM rates. Once price has been established it is extremely difficult to raise. That is sales 101. Further, being public about it lets potential advertiser's know where to hit you when it comes to price.
One might argue that you will have two classes of podcast's advertising segments emerge - "premium producers" and the "low price leaders." I'd be curious to see how that might shake out.
Mike
And one more thing - even more important. Where is the usability in podcasting. Have we forgotten all about user friendliness. Just finding a way to listen to or even subscribe to a podcast can be like finding the needle in a haystack on a blog or a website.
As long as we don´t adress these issues, the media might grow, but not as much as it could.
I would love to know what gave you the idea that you know Podcasting so well that you can make these types of comments.
Tim and Paul, Just cause your experience is that advertisers pay low, low rates to “test” the media, That they will never raise it, does not make it true for everyone else.
I would say the majority of podcasters did not get into it to make money we got into it because we were passionate on a subject and wanted to express that. Just as many Radio personalitys did the same but on radio.
I want to write so much more but I feel I will end up turning it into a Flame war.
P.S Paul I have not problem with you but your way off base here.
I agree with Tim B and Michael G. that CPM rates are tough to get back up once you have offered a deep discount to get a new advertiser on board and many of the advertisers will think of your podcasts the same way they think about banner ad's, when an ad runs in your podcast they expect instant click results. Podcast advertising is just like radio advertising, you must have frequency to get a response. You have to get them to think about the delayed response to podcast advertising.
Everyday I feel pressure to ignore tech podcasts as many on the outside of our community don't feel that they should spend any time or effort at all on tech podcasts and early adopter tech geek types. They see tech content as too narrow and not a large potential audience.
Newer people to the podcast industry want to see podcasting become a mass media like broadcast and reach a huge audience and a mass market audience. I think many think this can be done by ignoring the early adopter audience, but I think that is a mistake. Many also think that this can be done by simply offering a more diverse and complete content offering. I know that I am splitting hairs on this one, but I think this approach is getting ahead of itself.
I think where we are today is still clearly in the early adopter semi-geek phase and that is where the growth still is. It is just slower growth for now until the technology, usability and compelling non-tech content appears. I think we are seeing this happen at NPR as they start getting into video podcasting as well. I also think mobile is a very important evolution of podcast distribution.
I know this is a little off topic, but I am working on the mobile podcasting piece with Mobilcast and it is expanding all around the world fast. I am working on content and operator deployment all over the world right now. You all would be amazed if you saw the list of operators moving to Mobilcast and Mobile Podcasting.
All I can say is that Music, Comedy, Entertainment, Tech, News, Talk Radio are the top content categories with everyone of these operators. These are the content areas that need to be grown and improved in podcasting to reach the masses. But I also feel that niche programming has a big piece as part of the growing importance of long-tail content, I am just seeing most of this content fade out.
In Europe, I am hearing that mobile data plan rates will be coming down over the coming months and speeds will be getting better.
Rob Greenlee
http://www.mobilcaster.com
http://www.mobilcast.com
FWIW we have been able to get consistent increases in CPM because we have been able to show great performance on the ad buys. But we also take the approach that we would rather have a advertiser long term and build some stability into monetizing shows.
If a podcaster thinks he is going to be able to get $45.00 CPM rates everytime out of the gate then he is going to wait a long time for a ad deal, but if the podcaster can look at the long haul and understand he can easily get $20.00 to $35.00 CPM month after month that is a pretty good trade off.
Sure flat rate sponsorships are great but 97% of the shows out their do not have unique enough content nor have the volume to even consider it. Combine that with a website that looks good, audio that is high quality and a active and participating audience.
While we have podcasters earning as much as $9,000 a month on combined CPA/CPM advertising deals we also have smaller shows that are on the other end of the spectrum that have micro audiences that make enough to pay hosting bills.
Advertisers expect ROI for their investment and to think otherwise is only being ignorant of how the real Internet advertising business really works.
-Scott
It's Matthew Bischoff from PodcastPeople.com. I really like the way you put this because I think these problems have been present since the beginning of the technology when Adam Curry was talking about how many subscribers he was getting and how his business model would trump the others. I think that products like ours and the Apple TV will eventually lead to a broader and more democratized podcast community and audience and that most of these issues will be sorted out. Feel free to check out the site, I'd love to get some of your feedback. Also, thanks for finally writing something that I've had in my head for a year or so.
Regards,
Matthew Bischoff
"Content in itself has no value to an advertiser."
I find that hard to swallow. In the old model of advertising, you would see and hear commercials that had nothing to do with the programming. Instead of adding value to the programming, commercials became a nuisance. Hence the advent of DVRs. Now, we don't have to listen to annoying commercials that are completely unrelated to our favorite shows.
But what happens when you advertise a product related to the programming? I would think that an advertiser of a piece of web design software would be willing to pay out the ear for the chance to advertise on a show about web design. I would think that a show about web design would attract either web designers or those aspiring to be web designers. Seems to me that would be an excellent venue for a web design software ad.
Granted, the content must be great. But when you have compelling content, you will see a higher CPM. Or better ad rates, or sponsorship rates.
Content is what people are searching for on the Internet. They want answers, they want information. If you have that information, why are you willing to accept ad rates that don't reflect the value of the content you are providing?
I admit, any money is better than none. If you take a small ad deal to start with, don't be stuck in the mindset that you'll never be able to rise above it. And definitely don't think that your content is worthless to advertisers. Content is what people look for. Podcasting is the channel that provides the content. Podcasting great content delivers the people to the advertisers.
It's been said a million times before, and I'll say it here again, "Content is king."
The fledgling podcast entrepreneur desiring material success must run his or her business like the big boys, and the big boys build a business plan and stick to it including setting price points for their product or service rather than accepting whatever the market will pay. Example: I can’t speak for Apple Inc, but I doubt if the brand management team released a memo stating, “Let’s sell our new iPhone for whatever price the consumer will pay, and raise our prices later.” If my analogy seems preposterous to you, and you don’t believe your work is as valuable if not more so than that of the established players, you will never realize the full potential of your talents.
There are as many opinions in podcasting as there are podcast producers, but take it from me when I say to be successful you must:
1) Sort out your resolve by asking yourself why you podcast.
2) Determine your overhead.
3) Set your profit margin.
4) Prioritize your competition.
5) Set your timetable to success.
6) Do something you love, and do it to the best of your ability.
Have fun. Good night.
While they may not ever make a dime, they have a passion for what they are doing. I have met tons of podcasters at different events. They actually love podcasting. I think it is great to have a passion for somthing. Something you love to do. They don't know what a CPM is, or really even care. They just love, and enjoy everything to do with podcasting.
I am sure someday these people will become a minority in podcasting. Big business will make bigger and bigger movements into podcasting. Eventually it will become a more profitable business model. There will always be room for the next Keith & The Girl, the next Dawn & Drew. There will always be room for anyone who has a mic, and a passion.
Perhaps I just don't get it... I'm just a farm boy from rural Manitoba but I can't figure it out. I have been sitting here for a few years now trying to figure out how you build an industry, an economy, a world on "Free"
or on CPM rates (Google Ad rates included) that won't pay for my cat's (Mr. Z) food.
Having said that I do agree with Free... and as soon as my landlord, dentist and bartender start accepting my pledge to do good works in the world as payment I'll be the FreeMyster all the way.
Cheers,
Allan
Danny Guspie
http://www.podcast-marketing-center.com
Usually you are spot on but saying that podcaster are shooting their own foot is a little misleading and spectacular. Perhaps you should rephrase it so say "Some podcasters...."
You lost me at "This needed to be said."
Andy Bilodeau
http://www.andycast.net
The problem as I see in podcasting is that there is no defacto standard.
I know many of you reading this may have been podcasting for years. So you have much more experience in this than I. My question to you is...
How does the "mass" market listen to a podcast?
Now, every single person here will probably jump in with about a 100 ways to listen to a podcast. That there is the problem. Because there are is NOT the one simple way to listen to a podcast the general public is confused. The mass market is left with their hand on their mouse and choose maybe not to listen at all. Sure you'll get the hardcore person who absolutely wants your content and will jump through all the bells and whistles to listen to it.
I believe someone here stated already that it's harder than hell to even find out how to subscribe to a podcast. Now try to teach that to a non-technical person. There is nothing that is consistent to each of the podcasts on the market.
My point is simple. There needs to be a standard set. Because there is NO standard at this point in the industry, each and every week we see the next company popping up to "CLAIM" it is the NEW standard, yet no one agrees with them.
Here's an example... How do you open a PDF file? Simple question and simple answer download Adobe PDF Reader, install it, and double click on the PDF.
See how simple that is? If there was as simple method for podcasting the masses would be more apt to listen to a podcast.
Paul brings up some great contradictions to the podcasting industry.
In essence... WHAT IS YOUR BUSINESS MODEL?
I guess the REAL QUESTION is, do you even have a business model.
Sure many people are creating some creating great content. What are you doing with it. If podcasting is a hobby that's great, you may not be even thinking of monetizing it. But if you believe you are RUNNING a business, yet you don't do anything to monetize it... quit your bitching.
You only make money when someone SELLS something. In podcasting, it maybe selling adspace in your content or at least on the main site of your podcast.
So now we are at... what comes first? Subscribers or Advertisers? Kind of a catch 22 situation don't you think? You need subscribers or listeners in order to get advertisers.
I believe it was Mitchell Anthony here who stated above that his podcasts are getting listened to 300k times a month. Very impressive to say the least. But what does that mean. Now I don't know Mr. Anthony's business. But these people listening are apparently NOT going to his websites.
One website isn't even on the Alexa radar and the other has an Alexa rank in the millions. So NO ONE of the 300k people are coming even to his website to find out more information. Maybe I'm missing something here, quite possibly he is earning an amazing income from ads in his podcast. I don't know I've never listened to it.
My example of Mitchell Anthony's business is not to belittle his business, on the contrary. What he has achieved is extraordinary. My point is to simply state... DIRECTION NEEDS TO BE GIVEN TO THE LISTENER. Tell them what to do. You have the ear of your listener. Use it to direct them to your websites or to an advertiser. This alone will earn your more income than many are earning now.
I have noticed there is basically a sect of the podcast industry which is what I would refer to as "PURISTS". They somehow think monetization of your podcast is BAD THING. That content should be free and if you make money from it, you're the DEVIL.
Again my point is it's business. Sell something!!!
Most of the people making most money in the podcasting industry right now, are people selling the TOOLS and SERVICES to the industry. We can all change that. Money is to be mad in podcasting. But not if no one realizes the value of content and 1.) Charges for it or 2.) At least earn ad revenue from it.
Pauls post of the CONTRADICTIONS in this industry is basically right on. The industry itself as I see it is in a quander. No one can agree on standards, therefore the whole industry suffers.
If monetization bad? If you believe making money is bad then yes.
But if you believe that paying your bills and creating a business for yourself and your family is good, then SELL SOMETHING PLEASE!!!
"Begging for reviews at iTunes, the Pickle, the Alley and more while assuring us that they don’t matter."
Cracked me up! If they don't matter, they wouldn't even be brought up. I'm not ashamed to admit I like being in the pickle top 20.... ;)
Good list to think about.
D
Regarding your comment about my Creating Success and BuzzBender podcasts, "So NO ONE of the 300k people are coming even to his website to find out more information"
1) I never stated I have 300,000 listeners; I stated my podcasts get ~300k downloads a month.
2) Alexa Web Search only measures the web usage of those having the Alexa Toolbar. I don't use the toolbar, and neither does anyone I know. Alexa and ClustrMaps, to name a few, give incomplete data on website traffic. For the real deal get a Google Analytics account.
My Creating Success podcast ranks #1 with Yahoo, #4 with Alta Vista, #5 with Google and the iTunes Music Store. Search the words “Creating Success” and “Success” for yourself.